Interview:Johan Cels,

representative of the Japan Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)

Johan Cels (second from right) explains about conditions in refugee camps. (Photo by Yuumi Kimura, 14)

After the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, there were many orphans, and those orphans had to steal and lead terrible lives because they didn't have anyone to rely on. I think that that would be the same with refugee children. So my question is what kind of lives do refugee children lead?

Actually, I before coming here, I'm about half way reading the book of Mayor Hamai, the first mayor of Hiroshima after the bomb, and what really struck me, when he talks about the orphans, and what really struck me is that the story, what he explains about what he and other people of Hiroshima is very much like a refugee story. Because many people died in Hiroshima, many people were severely wounded and sick. But also, many people had to be evacuated and fled. And a lot of the children were evacuated, and I think this issue of, and other many people kind of fled from Hiroshima to other parts, in neighboring cities, in neighboring communities because they were in need of food, medical attention, shelter, a place to sleep, and this is very much like what refugees do when they are forced to flee because of a conflict.

And especially for refugee children or refugee orphans, one of the first issues you first have to find is to see whether any of the parents are still alive. Because often, after the atomic bomb or after a conflict, there is a sort of confusion, a lot of people going in different directions, and sometimes we think that children are orphans, but actually if we start looking, after a while, you either are able to find one of the parents or maybe another close relative, an uncle or an aunt, who can take care of the children. Because it is most important that the children are taken care of by the relatives. This is what we call tracing. We try to trace family members so that they can come back together. Basically, it is to find somebody. You try to find people in different ways. And then later on, of course, you provide a place where they can live, where they can go to school, where they can have medical attention, et cetera. And then, hopefully, after a period of time, you can find maybe other families with whom they can live or when they are a certain age that they can stand on their own feet.

I think for refugee children, life in camp is extremely hard and difficult because, basically, the opportunities for them to get an education in refugee camp is very limited. Most of the time, they are only able to get primary education. It's very seldom, not in many refugee camps, we have high school. And universities are impossible. Education is basically very limited. What we try to do is to provide primary education. The infrastructure is very basic. Often among the teachers, we use people from the camp itself. Sometimes they are teachers, sometimes they are not trained teachers. Often, it also means that you have too many students, so you have a class in the morning and you have a separate class in the afternoon. So the number of hours actually being taught is very limited.

The other problem is that often they get a diploma when they finish high school. But then when they go to another place, their diploma is not being recognized because it is not an official diploma. So then they also have problems. It makes it more difficult for them to find jobs.

Is there something that you are particularly careful of when you are protecting or supporting refugee children?

Try to imagine a refugee camp, which is like a small city. It's like 20 or 30 thousand people, even in a camp. But a camp, the conditions are very difficult. Either we have tents, they are living in tents, or in some kind of small huts. And the services that are there are good but very basic, which means that you have medical care, you have a hospital. You have some schools, but very limited. I mean, sports facilities are very rare. And the problem is that children are very vulnerable in refugee camps, because often they can be exploited by adults. In some of the situations, we have faced the problem of children being recruited by rebel groups, for example.

We had, for example, in Sudan, there are many refugee camps. And there we had children, of your age and even younger, who were forced by the rebels to join the army. At first, it means that they would be obliged to help to carry some supplies and then, later on, they would be forced to fight. Young girls would be forced to sexual abuse, would be raped, and this is very serious problems. So we are very concerned, we have to try to do everything possible to prevent that from happening.

Does the UNHCR manage the refugee camps?

Yes, together with the governments.

Despite that, these things happened in Sudan?

Yes, sometimes, in many other countries, not only in Sudan. The problem is that often during the day we are present in the camp, but at night, often for security reasons, we also have to leave the camp. And many things happen at night.

What are the security issues that make you leave the camps at night?

For example, sometimes, there are certain groups, either from some rebel groups who will try to enter the camp because often the camps are close to the border. A refugee is a person who crosses a border and goes into another country. But often also rebel groups move across borders during the night. And then sometimes they try to enter the refugee camps because either they need food, they want to rest, and also they want to recruit soldiers. And this is when often, and when we are there, it prevents them from doing that, and sometimes they may attack us or they may create problems for us.

Often these camps are in very isolated areas, and our offices, we often have offices in the camp. We also have a bigger office in the town nearby. But sometimes at night it is very difficult to know what happens.

What I think I can do is to learn about these activities and to share it with people so that the power of civil society can make governments act to address the refugee problem. I believe that understanding and conveying is important. What is it that we, as junior and senior high school student in Japan, do?

I think you can do a lot. First of all, I'm already very happy that you're writing an article about it because it shows that you're interested, you're concerned about it, and that you're willing to do something about it. And I think that's very good.

What I think you can do is to, for example, in some schools in the Tokyo area, we have students who have classes and who discuss, who spend an hour or two hours discussing refugee issues. I'm very sorry for not having it with me, but I can send it to you. If you give me your address, I can send it. We have a textbook for high school students, junior high school students, which was developed in a very easy way to understand. Yes, there you are. And basically organize within your class a lecture, a presentation, a discussion on refugee issues so you have everybody understand. You can do that in different classes in the school, and I think you can do quite a lot in reaching out. That is one thing. The second thing is that, for example, often on World Refugee Day, which is 20 June, many schools in different parts of Japan organize on that day a special event in trying to raise awareness of refugee issues all over the world but also inside Japan. And this is something you can do and it's not too difficult to organize.

What kind of special events are held on World Refugee Day?

We organize a number of events in Tokyo itself together with NGOs, the community, civil society. But also what you can do is you can organize an exposition within the school, and we can send you some materials like posters and some background material, and it can easily be done. I am sure that within the Hiroshima area, there are refugees. And it is for you to find them and to talk to them and try to understand. Maybe there are refugee children of your age also within Hiroshima. Maybe some of them the Indo-Chinese, the Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laos, who came to Japan 20 years ago, and reaching out to them and trying to understand what happened to them, what happened to their families, and what does it mean for them to live in Japan.

I believe that knowing is important, but some people may be satisfied with just knowing, thinking it's all right because they understand the issue. But I don't think that will lead to concrete action. What is your opinion?

Concrete action is, I think one of the things is that you can organize for example a support group. One of the easiest things is to raise funds for refugee operations. You can decide, you can discuss and decide, yes, we want to support refugees in a country, like Myanmar, for example. And then you can collect donations and that will then be used for refugees from Myanmar, for example. That is one example.

For refugees here, in Japan or in Hiroshima, I think you could find a way of reaching out to them. And then trying to help them settle, integrate within Japan, within the community.

And, I am sure you are clients of UNIQLO shops. UNIQLO collects the clothing, cleans it, packs it, and it is sent to refugee camps.

You are Japanese youngsters. You like to dress well, you like to dress beautifully. You are very fashion conscious. Refugee children in a camp also want to be cool. They also want to be very nicely dressed. But they don't have money. They don't have clothes. So, a simple thing that doesn't cost you anything, you can make a big difference for people in refugee camps. If you don't have decent clothing, often, you don't feel like going to school because you are ashamed. And by having decent clothing, especially girls are able to go to school because otherwise they would stop going to school.

There are many things you can do.

What kind of activities does the UNHCR do in Japan?

We have four main activities. First is we provide a lot of, we work together with the Ministry of Justice, the Immigration Bureau in particular, about refugees and asylum seekers here inside Japan, and also with the NGOs.

Secondly is that Japan for us is a very important country because, as you know, Japan has been, for many years, a non-permanent member of the Security Council. It has helped many countries all over the world, especially in Africa and Afghanistan. And so it has a lot of influence in trying to resolve conflicts, and when a conflict is resolved, it allows refugees to go home to start a life again. And there is where Japan can play a very big role in the world. Japanese people are very supportive of refugee issues.

The third issue is that we do a lot of public information, like education materials, and I will give you another document which has just come out about public information because we want to raise awareness within Japan about refugee issues because within Japan, unfortunately, not enough people know about what is happening in other parts of the world.

And then the fourth activity is that we also have what we call an eCenter, and it's a small center where we provide training on emergency management, contingency planning, security training for Asia Pacific, for government officials, NGOs, and UN staff. And it's actually an initiative by the government of Japan, which is quite unique.

Could you tell us a little more about the eCenter?

Contingency planning is about to plan what do you do in case a conflict breaks out. It helps you to stay, to know who is going to do what once a conflict breaks out, once you have a humanitarian crisis. Security training is the, I mean, we all work in often dangerous places, so we have to learn how to behave when, for example, I'm taken hostage. They train us to know what to do, what not to do when you're taken hostage. What to do in case you have landmines or you have somebody with a gun threatens you. And so that you minimize any security risks.

Where is the eCenter?

It is based in my office in Tokyo, but the training we provide all over Asia and the Pacific.

How many refugees are there in Japan right now?

The total in Japan is about a little bit more than 2,000 plus about 3,000 Indochinese refugees.

What are the nationalities of the 2,000?

Primarily from Myanmar. I would say a very large majority are from Myanmar.

And I think you have probably seen the news the decision, the first group of 27 people who came to Japan. They were Myanmarese refugees in Thailand and they are being resettled to Japan. A couple of weeks ago.

In Japan, there are 2,000 refugees. How does that rank amongst the other countries? Is this a small number?

Yes. I think because Japan is an island, many different islands, so it's much more difficult to reach and to come to Japan.

So the number of people who seek asylum, or asylum seekers, are very small, relatively. I think, for last year, the number was 1,399 and the year before it was 1.600, which is, in comparison with other countries in the world is very small.

Among the 2,000 refugees in Japan, how many of them are minors?

Not many. I don't have exact figures. Most of them are young adults, twenties, thirties.

Are there standards within the Immigration Bureau to decide to which prefecture a refugee will be sent to?

No. They can live wherever they want. Once they are recognized, they can live wherever they want in Japan.

Many of them, either because they want to find jobs, and they often live with other people of the same community nearby, so many of them either live in Tokyo or in the areas like Toyota City, where you have many factories where they can easily find jobs.

Can they easily find jobs?

No. Because of the economic recession in Japan, many of them have lost their jobs.

It is especially the language. You have to learn Japanese and I know it is not easy.

So they have to deal with hardships even after leaving their country.

Yes. Settling into the country, getting to know Japan, getting to know the culture, getting to know the language-it's not easy. It is often difficult.

Are there any special support you provide for these people?

Together with the NGO community, in Tokyo and in other places in Japan, we try to provide legal advice, legal counsel, for example. Also, when there are health problems or mental problems, and they know where to go to. And then sometimes, for example with Seko-do you know the marathon runner Seko-san?-we have organized with him an ekiden, and we do that in Mt. Fuji, and then for two years, together with Waseda University, we have gone to the refugee camps in Tanzania and organized an ekiden with the refugees there. The first ekidens in Africa took place in a refugee camp. It was good fun. That was two years ago and last year.

How many refugees are there in the world?

43 million. The total number of people which we are responsible for is 43 million. And that includes refugees, also people who have been displaced internally within their country, and also people which we call stateless. These are people without citizenship.

Why did you decide to work for UNHCR?

My parents were refugees. At the beginning of the Second World War, They were in the city in Belgium, and when the German army entered Belgium, a lot of people were afraid and they fled either to other parts of Belgium and to France. And then when things started to calm down, they went back, but by that time the house was occupied by German soldiers. And so they were living for quite some time together. It was a big property, so more than half or three quarters were taken by the Germans. There were several businesses, so they confiscated trucks and equipment. And then, of my father's side, two of his brothers were sent to Germany for labor. And one was also imprisoned and died.

And I'm sure you listen to the stories of your parents and grandparents, what happened to them, and it's always something that fascinated me. It's the ability to give back, to make a difference, to make a change, to make a better world.

That is why it is so important yesterday the witness, the A-bomb survivor, it is so important to listen and to hear because these experiences we have to learn from them. And if you don't hear them, you don't learn the lessons. We tend to forget what has happened.

So you've always wanted to do this job since you were small?

Not since I was small. It's always something that interested me, and when the opportunity came, I thought this would be worth it, and I very much enjoy it. It's a wonderful job.

In the future, I would like to have a global job, perhaps at the UN. What kind of abilities are necessary for that?

What I think is very important, [and I think unfortunately in Japan,] I think foreign languages. Learn to read, write, speak fluently English, French, Chinese, whatever. Very important. I know it's a challenge. It's not easy. Without that, you can have a PhD, you can have whatever, it will not work, without language, it will not work. I really urge you to really learn languages.

Secondly, of course you need to get a good university degree and a master's degree, but also travel abroad, try to work for an NGO abroad. There are many good Japanese NGOs working in different parts of the world. Get the experience. And then you can choose what you would like to do.

How many languages can you speak?

My mother tongue is Flemish, which is close to Dutch, it is the same language. English, French, a little bit of German and Italian. But my Japanese, I've tried. It's very difficult.

What is your nationality?

Belgian.

Is Flemish the language in Belgium?

We have three languages in Belgium. Flemish, or Dutch, French and German. That's why it is so important to learn languages. We learn from primary school, we learn all three languages.

What has left the deepest impression on you of all of your activities until now?

There are two stories I will tell you. My first job with UNHCR was in Hong Kong with Vietnamese people, and I was working in a camp, and it was like here in Hiroshima, you have these beautiful islands and sea, and on top there is this camp and it has an amazing view but the camp is all barbed wire, and huts and concrete. And inside the huts, it was three levels, one, two, three. And on a table like this, a family of three of four people were sleeping. And in one of those huge hangars, there were hundreds of people living. The thing was that, there was this beautiful view, but the people were not allowed to go outside. Everyone could only stay within the camp, and the children were born, basically born and grew up in a camp, and on the outside we had this beautiful island, this beautiful view, but they were never allowed to go. Can you imagine living in a camp for two, three, four years without being able to go outside? There were a lot of problems.

And the second story, it was in 1991, when the first time the United States entered Iraq. And then there was an uprising in the north of Iraq with Kurdish refugees, who then fled into Turkey and to Iran. And so the Kurds wanted to flee into Turkey but they were not allowed to cross the border, and so you had one side of a mountain completely full of people, with little shelters and with their horses and with their donkeys, and it was just as far as you could see, a whole mountain of people. This was in the winter, so there was snow. And a lot of people got sick. And a lot of the children, the babies, got dysentery. Basically, they lose their water and they have diarrhea and basically they dry out. And I don't know if you have ever seen a baby which is totally dehydrated. It basically looks like an old person, the face. And I have seen it many times. I can never forget it. To see, it's like what happened in Hiroshima, in a different way. You see these young children, basically completely dehydrated, and you know that they will probably die. There is nothing you can do. The two things that had the most impact.

Why were they stopped at the Turkish border?

Because the Turkish government did not allow them to enter the country. And the border was a small river. So we were with our equipment on one side of the border and all the refugees, we were looking at them across the border on this huge mountain full of people. And during the day we went to help them, but at night, we couldn't be there, so we had to come back.

So you were on the Turkish side?

Yes.

You mentioned the four activities that you do in Japan, and you talked about the influence Japan has. Can you tell us more about that activity?

For example, Afghanistan is one of the foreign policy priorities for Japan, and Japan has engaged a lot in the discussions and negotiations for Afghanistan, and also has made a commitment to provide 5 billion dollars over five years to Afghanistan to help rebuild the country.

Is that to be given in cash or in in-kind assistance?

Both. Most of the funding will go to JICA to help develop infrastructure projects. Also a loan program is also part of it. Another component is to fund training for the police and also for the reintegration of the Taliban and also an amount for the refugee programs.

That is one example. Another example is for Africa. Japan has organized TICAD (Tokyo International Conference on African Development), which is an international conference on assistance development for Africa, and Japan has made a major donor contribution for that. And I think that is a very important thing.

And a third example, Japan is our second largest contributor. So Japan has been very supportive of refugee issues. It is something Japan should be proud of.

(Shotaro Takata, 16, Chisa Nishida, 16, Masataka Tanaka, 16)

Born in 1958. Mr. Cels has worked for the UNHCR since 1988. He has served in many places including Hong Kong, northern Iran, Bulgaria, and Ethiopia. Prior to his current post, he was a senior policy advisor (Peace and Security) in the New York office. He became the representative of the Japan office in September 2008.